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This SHINE podcast interview is with my friend, colleague, and Chief People Officer Simina Simion. In this interview, Simina and I speak about a few very important themes. First we speak about how we can increase our conscious “inner game” skills to be skillful in asking for what we desire and negotiate anything. We talk about how we can embody skills of empathy and humility to be compassionate leaders during hiring and layoffs. I use a powerful coaching framework to guide Simina in how to ask for more in a future negotiation. Lastly, we share important topics of what you can negotiate for in the initial interview and offer stages of a professional role. This inspiring episode will empower you to own your worth, identify and ask for the tangible and intangible needs you deserve.
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Imperfect Shownotes
Hi, welcome to the shine podcast. My name is Carley Hauck. I’m your host, this is the fifth season of the shine podcast. I started the shine podcast as a way of doing research for my book on conscious leadership in business. And you will find interviews with scientists, researchers and business leaders on the intersection of conscious inclusive leadership, the recipe for high performing teams and awareness practices. My book debuted in 2021 Shine ignite your inner game of conscious leadership and was voted one of the best books to read in 2022. By mindful magazine, I facilitate two episodes a month of the shine podcast.
And before I tell you about the topic for today, please go over to Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast carrier and hit the subscribe button so you don’t miss any future episodes. The focus of this season is on the essentials for wellbeing. And that encompasses the intersection of our personal well being the collective well being of our workplace, and how that fosters and nurtures the planet’s well being they are all connected. I focus on well being this season, because I really want to crack the code and inspire folks to prioritize their individual well being and therefore that will transcend into the collective and the planet’s well being.
And I have developed a inner game leadership assessment that I gave out to 100 different leaders last year. And the leadership assessment is based on the framework of the inner game, which is what we’re cultivating on the inside to be conscious leaders. And it shows up on the outside when we cultivated the certain qualities. And two of the nine leadership competencies that were lowest from the sample of 100 leaders were psychological and physical well being. Therefore, that is why we are focusing on well being and if you’re curious about where your strengths and gaps are, around the qualities to become a conscious leader, you can take the assessment and find out your score for free. I recently opened to the assessment tool to the public and the link will be in the show notes.
Now on to our episode. I am so excited to have this conversation about how to ask for more. And really wonderful practical tips for negotiation. Samina. Thank you so much for being here.
Arlie thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to chat with you today.
Well introduce yourself to all of these wonderful listeners.
So my name is Amina I, I am a mom, I’m a wife. I am a people leader in the tech world. And I’m also an immigrant. And I came to this country about 13 years ago with big dreams and a passion to add value. And here I am today hopefully being hopeful that I’ve learned a lot and I grew a lot as a person and as a leader.
Thank you and what country did you emigrate from?
I was born in Romania.
Mm hmm. Lovely. Well, we connected because of the people tech Partners Group that I have been kind of Yeah, just immersed in the last year so many incredible people leaders in that group. And then I also found out that you were good friends with an pal who is another shining light leader in my life. So I’m again just really happy that we’ve been able to foster this new connection and relationship and I am going to just tee up the podcast a bit so folks know what we’re going to be talking about.
So Samina and I are going to speak about some of her inner game conscious leadership qualities that have supported her to be the incredible chief people officer that she is. And we’re going to talk a little bit more about what has been challenging for her as a CPO, especially given the current economy and the future of work climate. And then we’re going to run through a negotiation conversation, that will be me being the coach. It’s one of the wonderful hats that I wear. And then really working through a framework that is going to be something that you can apply to yourself, or to support somebody else as they’re trying to figure out their negotiation terms for a new role. Or frankly, it could even be how do you negotiate buying a new house or car or a conversation with your partner? I mean, it’s all clickable.
And then we’re going to talk about what kinds of things can we negotiate for with roles at the beginning and even you know, when the offer has been given? And specifically, what should female executives be asking for Samina is also going to share some tips. And then at the very end, I will record this coaching framework that Sumeet and I are going to roleplay together so it’s packed, it’s going to be so great. And let’s go ahead and start. So the intersection of this podcast really talks about conscious leadership, high performing teams awareness practices, Samina, I know you’re a bit familiar with the framework of conscious leadership that I’ve developed, there’s nine different qualities. And you have read my book. So what leadership quality do you feel is your strongest and which one is an opportunity for growth?
Great question. And I feel that resilience is one of my strongest qualities. And probably the second after that is empathy. And the third is humility. But I’ll talk about resilience a little bit more. Yeah, it started from, you know, early age, when I realized that I needed to be courageous in order to grow. And I took a few steps, including the one to relocate into a completely new country and start from scratch my career, my community, and realized very early on, that is not always a smooth sailing. And you’re going to experience turbulences, and I’m a big fan of Brene, brown, and I like to, to share this point of view with folks that I’m coaching and folks that I work with, you’re not going to experience growth, if you’re afraid of embracing the suck. And in order to experience that growth, it’s it’s worth knowing when it’s too early, to move away from a situation. I’m a big believer, especially as a female executive, that there are different rules around when executives are departing, departing a company and a role. Ideally, you’re never running away, when it’s hard. Ideally, you, you stick to it, and you try to solve the problems that you’re seeing in front of you and continue to add your value in terms. In times of turbulence, I think that’s one of my main qualities. And the thing that helped me experience the most growth in my career, you’re probably seen by looking at my profile that I like staying for a long period of time, especially in tech that rarely, a lot of people are staying for five, six years, I’ve experienced that at least once and experienced a couple of three years Steens in you, especially at a startup, you see a lot of changes. And those are great opportunities to learn and understand how a business is evolving and how you are evolving as a leader.
So that I would say that that’s probably my my, my main superpower. And the second one that I care deeply about as a people leader and as a leader, as an as a leader in general is empathy is really trying to understand how others are feeling and what is their perspective, to be able to craft programs, Paulus’s interventions that make sense, and they don’t feel disconnected from the reality. The third one that I think it’s a non negotiable, it’s humility. It’s it’s humbleness, and humility. Knowing that you can do it all you it really takes a village to build something exceptional.
And you need to have the strength and self awareness to realize that you cannot be good at everything. And it’s okay and highly recommended to hire and build teams around you with people who have the qualities that you don’t or they’re passionate about the things that you might be passionate but you might not have the superpowers to do them really, really well.
And that’s what I’ve no Based on how I conduct myself and how I how I like to continue my path as a leader, thank you. To summarize, even though you did it so well yourself, out of the nine different ones, you have listed resilience, which the way you’re describing it. And the way that I actually talked about in the book is a growth mindset. You know, how is this challenge for me? How is it a gift, what am I going to learn from it, and then empathy and humility and humility to your point is really about asking for support, you know, acknowledging your vulnerability that you don’t know everything, and then asking people to come in and join you and, and help delegate those things that you don’t know, so that you empower other people to step in and create this incredible culture. Thank you.
What about one that is an opportunity for growth, right now, I’ve thought about this for quite some time, and an opportunity for growth is carving out time, for my well being, there is a tendency to constantly prove the world that you can do more faster, better, smarter, but what I’ve learned on my own by experiencing, you know, sometimes challenging times is that if you don’t recharge your batteries, you’re not gonna go too far, I have a tendency to jump all in. And I had a tendency to really want to see results immediately prove value, as soon as possible. But what I’ve learned through hard lessons is that you can’t control it all.
And even if you dedicate yourself 150%, to something, there are so many variables at play, there is no guarantee that just by working hard and doing all the right things, and being always on something that’s gonna be successful. As we evolve and grow as human beings, our identity is becoming a well rounded identity, you’re not only the professional who works in tech, you’re the man who you know, educates and takes care of other human being and how they’re going to behave in this world, you’re a partner to someone you are a daughter, into someone, a member of the community, there are so many opportunities to give back and add value, the way you see yourself and define yourself should not come only from one angle.
So with that in mind, while I will always want to excel in what I do, I’m also becoming more and more aware of the multiple roles that I’m assuming in this world and how I’m showing up in all of them. Because it has to be a balance, it has to be a work life integration, it has to be moments when you give more on one side, and when you give more on the other side, depending on what’s happening in life. And that’s what I’m trying to transition into and feel good about the fact that you’re not always going to be your best self or on your best foot on on your top game, depending on what’s happening in life. And that’s okay.
I hear you are nourishing the well. So that you have what you need to then bring your best is a growth opportunity. And so that actually goes into the next question that I was going to ask that I know you and I have talked about, you know, off the record, which is one of the bigger challenges I think that people like yourself in your role have been navigating with the current economy and future of work is there have been a lot of layoffs. And so, being that you’re a leader that leads from love that has a lot of empathy.
How have you navigated in your career, how to really send people off with care and compassion, because I’ve talked to lots of folks and leaders and people that have been the ones that have, you know, delivered it and have been on the receiving end, and it’s typically not done with a lot of consciousness, but I know that you do it differently. So share a little more on that. How are you taking care of yourself and then being able to take care of these people in the most graceful kind way that you can under the circumstances, right?
Yeah, no, and I’ll start with the beginning. As a leader, you always join the company thinking about how the company is going to grow, how to build the businesses gonna succeed, how the great people you have on board are going to grow in their careers and grow as as professionals and as human beings and Then something happens. And it, especially in the last few months, or in the last few years, if we think about the pandemic, where things are not going, according to the plan, no matter how hard everyone is trying, the economy is turbulent there are headwinds in the market. And sometimes you need to make very hard decisions.
And some of those hard decisions involve cutting people cutting jobs. And throughout my career, and I’ve been doing HR for more than 15 years internationally. In Europe, in the US, I work with companies based in in Asia, I found that no matter how much exposure to situations like this, you have as a people leader, if you lead from a point of love, and care and empathy, it’s going to be very hard to not be emotionally impacted by something like this. I remember the first layoff that I had to do in the US it’s happening, at least in my career, it happened more often after I relocated to the US, and I started to be a people leader. And I remember thinking about how these people have houses, they need to pay for the houses, they have children, they have family members, they need to take care of, they need to put food on the food on the table, they need to pay their bills, and I was thinking, wow, losing your job is one of the most dramatic, traumatic experiences someone can have.
And the fact that the company is not growing fast enough, or it doesn’t optimize stores profitability fast enough, or it needs to look better on paper for whatever is going to happen next, it doesn’t make the impact of these decisions, less stressful for the people on the receiving end. So as a people leader, I’ve always thought about if I would be in these people’s shoes, and by the way it can happen at any point in anyone’s careers, what would be my preference in how I would like to be treated? What will mean to me that I’m being laid off with respect, where I still keep at least some of my self esteem, that I’ve built throughout the years in my career, in what will help me land in the best possible way on my feet, right?
And I thought about it. And I talked to people that was questions, who were let go senior professionals, folks in the beginning of their careers. And I looked at the data on how much savings people have in the US if something like this happens. And the reality is that not a lot of people have a lot of savings to count on. And I really try to think about a couple of things, one, from an economical perspective, what is a decent package that’s going to help people land on their feet, given that it takes between three to five months to find a job.
Yet, it seems like in Dec is around three months, even now with distributed market, because a lot of new jobs are being created. So that’s one variable that went into the model. The second one was one, the economical terms are being approved. And there is some, you know, safety net for at least two or three months, and there is health insurance on the table as well. Because unfortunately, America is a country that does not offer that by default, and you have to pay for it. And it’s quite expensive. Then I went into how do we communicate? How do we communicate with care with empathy? How do we make sure that everyone feels that they’re still respected on their way out, even though we need to share some pretty terrible news?
How can we make sure we partner with the employees who are being terminated to equip them with the skills that they need to apply for unemployment to revamp their resumes to prep for the interview, it’s really hard to have your confidence that after being laid off, and we’re talking in this market about multiple rounds of layoffs, I have friends and people who are very close to me and my family who got laid off multiple times, once in COVID, one or two times now, that takes a toll on self esteem, how you’re showing up in the world. Let’s not even go to negotiating an offer you’re hoping to get over all you can even think about asking for more optimizing for the best possible result. Totally.
I’m always thinking about one, give them the package that it’s going to provide a softer landing, landing to make sure they have health insurance. Three, make sure you communicate with empathy and care for prep them for what they need to do ideally in the first week or month after a layoff make sure people are equipped on how to get their benefits back on employment, how to claim Cobra and then really help rebuild that confidence by looking at the resumes the LinkedIn profile, practicing interviewing, introduced introducing people of two companies looking for great talent so that everyone can, as quickly as possible get back on their feet. It’s a traumatic experience. And if as leaders, we don’t do it with a lot of care, it’s going to backfire. And it’s not going to help one the company is not going to help the brand is not going to help help the leaders attract new team members, when when the market gets better, is not going to help the society in general,
To bring myself into the mix of this, I started interviewing and applying for internal director and VP roles and learning and development in 2020. And it is now 2023, there were two offers and 2020. They were rescinded because of layoffs. So for me being that I’m still in it, still interviewing, still applying some of what I’ve experienced is that there are 1000 people to the one role that I’m applying for, I had a job tell me an employer rather tell me that they had 4000 plus 4000 people applied to the role that I applied for.
And so, you know, depending on your industry, because there’s not a lot of learning and development people even though they are so we need to equip leaders with the right tools to lead the organization. But it, it’s trying, so I, you know, I can definitely relate, and I think some of your tips are really helpful. So let’s move into our negotiation conversation. Let’s pretend that you are getting ready to have a conversation because you’ve been given an offer. And I’m going to wear the hat of coach and this is a framework that you can apply to any negotiation that you’re having. But I’m just gonna tee it up. So Samina, it’s so great to see you. I’m so excited for you that you have this new offer that you’re considering. And tell me a little bit about the context, what is the offer? What do you feel excited about? And then we’ll go from there.
I’m very excited about the offer that I just received, because it’s for a company that solves hard problems. I see the signs of really healthy culture. It seems that a company is financially stable, especially in this market, and they have enough runway. And it feels like there is product market fit and the company can continue to grow.
If if they execute according to the plan. So that excites me quite a bit because that means we can create more jobs, we can really scale or what we’re offering to the market here in the US, potentially internationally. It’s really creating the foundation for building something that is intentional, and it can scale intentionally, and really create that force multiplier in delivering business results. So that’s what excites me. I’m also excited about the terms of the offer.
Let me let me just paraphrase quickly what I heard you say. So I hear that you’re very excited about this offer for a few reasons. One, it’s a company that is solving hard problems. And I hear that that is really motivating for you you want to work for a purpose driven organization, I also hear that there is a healthy culture on the inside. So the leaders that are leading it are conscious, and you want to work with that type of leadership, and be able to really contribute. I also hear that they have a runway that allows them to be able to be secure, you know, financially stable in this economy in this market. And therefore you can scale intentionally did I miss anything you did not spot on.
And you were about to elaborate a little bit more something else you feel excited about tell me
and I feel excited about the economics of the offer because I find them being fair. And I’m saying fair for a reason. I care deeply about fair. Of course I care about optimizing a really good offer and really good terms but as a people leader, I’m also keeping an eye on internal equity among peers, making sure that you know while is the right type of offer for the valid right I bring it also that doesn’t, you know break the stability internally because that’s that’s another problem then that can be created and It’s pretty painful to solve for once it’s there.
So I’m looking at a lot of the things and while you know the monetary aspect is important, and don’t get me wrong is very important. And life is expensive right now, there are other elements of an offer that make it an absolute no brainer. What I’m hearing is there’s tangible needs, and there’s intangible needs that would make this a yes. Like an absolute Yes. So what do you need that’s tangible? And what do you need? It’s intangible.
I think from a tangible perspective, you need to make sure that you’re fairly compensated, you’re compensated at the market. And now here, hopefully, it’s going to be an easier conversation in the next few years, because of the pay Transparency Act. Really good progress, really good momentum is not a black box anymore. When you start applying and interviewing with companies, you kind of know, you know, where they are, what are the bands, so you know, is it for me, or if it’s, or it’s not, for me, for example, if you’re in California, and you interview for a leadership role, and they pay you 100k, you’re probably going to say this is not for me, I cannot afford to leave here, right? So that that simplifies the conversation quite a bit.
Now, every company is different, every company has a different philosophy in terms of pay, some companies are going to pay your 50th percentile, others are going to pay your 75th percentile, others are going to be more aggressive on the variable, others on the on the base, it different flavors, right. But at the end of the day, if it’s fair, if it’s market for the role, how much funding they have, if they’re a private company, how much ARR they have done all of that, you kind of know where you are, and what ballpark.
Now the non tangible things are very important when it comes to the new reality after COVID. What kind of life do we want to have as people and as professionals? What is more valuable to me? Or what is the environment that really works for my life? And how I want to craft my life? Am I an in person, type of professional or I’m a remote type of professional? Do I value to have flexibility? Or do I value routine and being in the office every single day? Because that’s the environment that that I’m thriving in? And that’s how I build connections, and there is no right or wrong answer. I don’t believe in one size fits all, I don’t believe that only remote is the way to go. And I also don’t believe that only in office is the way to go. I think there are different situations, different businesses, and particularities that are helping leaders make the decision if it’s in office, or if it’s hybrid, or if it’s remote, right. But a lot of candidates have preferences.
And they’ve done it both ways. And people feel strongly about it still did seems like the opportunities are not as many as they used to be for the remote roles. And a lot of the companies are starting to bring people back to in office five days a week or hybrid. But if you ask in your negotiation come conversation about remote like how would you ask that very openly?
What is the what is the culture at Company X? What is the expectation right now?
Do we have what is the policy? Right?
Do we think the policy is gonna change if it’s going to change? Is there a framework in which the leadership is going to make the decision for example, I remember when we started COVID, at one of my previous companies, and I told people and I promise, I’m not going to promise the model is not going to change, I can’t promise that I don’t know how the world is going to evolve. I don’t know what’s going to be needed from a business perspective. But what I can promise is that I’m not going to surprise people with two weeks notice that up starting two weeks from now, we’re going to be back in the office.
And I promised all the invoices that we’re going to give them and each other a six month heads up to be able to adjust and change our lives accordingly to either adjust to the new reality that we are trying to create or to vote with our feet and say, this is probably not the right fit for me and where I am in life today. Therefore, it’s probably better for me to depart the business.
Yeah, totally. I’m going to ask you two more coaching questions. And I know that this is probably going to be something we’ll continue to talk about and something that I’d love for you to even journal about. But we’re getting clear on what are the tangible what are the intangible needs? And then I want to ask, what is your concern? What What concerns do you have about this role? And then lastly, like what would make this an absolute yes for you?
Should I start with the concerns?
Yeah, let’s go there.
Ah, Mmm hmm. That’s such an interesting question. It really depends on the company and the stage of the company. So it’s really hard to, to answer it without having a clear example in front of me, right? Talking about hypothetical businesses. But the examples are mostly around the opportunity in front of you, as a leader in front of me as a leader, in what skills are needed to nail that stage of growth, or turbulences, or whatever is happening in the company, I would be very interested in what is the next stage of growth after the current one? And do I have the potential to grow and scale with the company because I have a clear idea in my mind that I’m open to be challenged by other leaders in the industry that executives are a great fit for a particular stage of growth.
And after that, it needs to, you know, a little bit of a self assessment needs to happen to really ask yourself, am I the right leader for the next stage of growth in this company or not? And that takes a lot of courage and self awareness, to be able to, and humility to be able to have that conversation with yourself. But every time I’m looking at an opportunity I’m looking at, can I get can I grow and scale with the business? What if they grow really fast? Why did they grow Not so fast, and they experienced a lot of turbulence is how much resilience? Do I need to show? And at what point and right like, How much am I willing to be in that turbulent time? How long is it going to be right? I think that goes back to the psychological and physical well being the balance of it all. What are you saying? Yes, yes, exactly.
Exactly. And that’s a good, that’s a good internal conversation to have with yourself as a candidate, to really run towards something and not to run away from something. Yeah, I’m a big believer in when someone starts a new role, when you’re looking at the non tangibles, and obviously, the tangibles as well. At the end of the day, to feel really good about the opportunity and to know deep down inside your soul that you’re running towards something. Because if you’re running towards something, no matter how hard it is, no matter how many turbulences you’re going to experience, no matter how good of a fit, you are for the next three stages of growth, and maybe you’re great for one or two, and you need to fire yourself before stage three, because the company needs a different type of leadership, you’re going to do it with a lot more passion, if you don’t find those connections.
And at the end of the day, being passionate about something, it’s probably one of the strongest predictors. I’ve seen in my in my entire career journey. Now what can break a decision or what will make a decision a no brainer in someone in my role in my shoes, or in your shoes, it comes back to the chemistry between the leadership team or between you and your manager. There are so many flavors of the ice cream at this level, especially when it comes to leadership roles in everybody. All a lot of people got to leadership roles, because they’ve done great work in their careers. They accomplished a lot. They worked hard, they worked hard. I don’t think at this level, it comes a lot to do you have the skills to do it. It’s about how you do it. How do you how do you invite the other partners to your table so that you can make progress together?
Influence and collaborate? I hear?
Yeah, I think it comes down to that. And it comes down to that chemistry between the people working together. So it sounds like you’re getting really clear on the tangible and the intangible. And then also what I’m hearing is, what would make this a total? Yes, is the chemistry of the other leaders. So they’re dating. Both ways. And in order to be ready to marry someone, both sides need to do their due date a few years.
Yes, but both sides need to do their due diligence and to make sure that why the moral compass of the other party to how they operate best when they are best on or when they are not at best. And you know, what kind of master sometimes shows up if they’re stressed or under resource or you know, all sorts of things that can happen in organizations. Probably that’s the most important factor that I’m taking into into consideration when saying yes, and going to the altar with with a new company.
Yeah, yeah. Thank you for sharing all of that. So in the last couple of minutes and I’ll I’ll share this framework of some of these questions that I asked semina at the end. So you want to listen all the way to the end. So you get those questions you can actually ask yourself, or you can ask another person that is also negotiating something important in their life. But what are some tips that you might give to anyone listening but especially to female executives? What can they start to negotiate in the initial interview stages?
And what can they negotiate that you would recommend? You know, during the offer, and the early interview stages, I would clarify the tangibles. I would make sure I get as much clarity as I as I can around those aspects in the late stage of an interview the offer stage, I think it’s time the industry to normalize the fact that executives meaning VPs and above should have some protection in place, right. We’ve seen rounds and rounds of layoffs. We’ve seen consolidations, we’ve seen a lot of headwinds, and turbulence is happening in the market. And it’s still not common to see severance clauses as part of the all of the executive contracts.
Well, I live in California. And I don’t know if this applies to executives, but California is an at will state. So they can they can let you go for any reason, even if you didn’t do anything wrong. So that doesn’t create a lot of security in me as someone that really wants to get married.
If you want to be a prenup, yes. And also, if you want to be the executive who’s gonna mention the unmentionable in the room who’s gonna have the crucial conversation? So it’s gonna challenge the status quo. You can’t really have those if you’re thinking well, do I have money to put food on the table for my kids? Do I have money to pay my mortgage or my rent, when I’m thinking about getting married with someone meaning in this case, starting a new job as a leader, there is a lot of risk on both sides, right?
The companies want to get it right. You want your leadership team, ideally, to encompass your core values to model the right behaviors to really drive the business forward. As a leader, you want to make sure that you’re not going to be micromanage, you’re gonna be respected for your opinion, and the expertise that you’re bringing to the table, you also want to be able to challenge the status quo nicely, you’re gonna require psychological safety, it’s not just a check in the box, that’s one of the very first things that I assess, and you got to build at the beginning. Totally.
So when you want to have psychological safety, but also move the needle forward, challenge the status quo, I find it hard to be able to address it and addressable. When you’re thinking about, well, do I have money to provide food for my family to pay for the house to take care of the kids are other people you need to take care of as a as a as a human being, when that variable is taken care of.
And you know that no matter what happens, you’re going to have a little bit of a softer landing, because it takes about six months on average to find your net next executive gig, the psychological safety that that relationship, and that pre negotiated contract creates for VPS. And above. It really benefits really beneficial for both parties involved in this, of course, the company is going to protect itself in a similar way. You you know you’re going to assess performance, you’re going to have OKRs, you’re going to measure it if people are not hitting the goals, obviously, you’re going to make the hard choices, and you’re going to let people go but a found that it’s easier to build that psychological safety. If there is clarity around if this doesn’t work out. What are what are both parties getting out.
Right? What’s Yeah, totally. What is our agreement? What is our agreement, having those hard conversations up front are so important. So that’s what I’m hearing is a really big takeaway. That’s what you can start to have in the interview process, like you’re assessing for that. You know, what happens when things get messy? is psychological safety a check in the box or not? Can we have these hard conversations and people still want to be kind and collaborate? And then what are our agreements when things get messy, you know, which isn’t doubtedly going to happen because we can’t control so that’s kind of what I’m hearing. Go ahead.
There’s there’s one good example of this work is the negotiation phase before you decide if it’s a yes or if it’s a no, that’s providing a lot of insight into how the future relationship is going to be. How can you work together to solve a challenge and you’re coming from On slightly different angles here, you’re trying to meet somewhere in between. And are you approaching this? How are you having those crucial conversations without breaking the relationship by
a fair fairness is a key value for you.
Yeah. Samina this was so helpful. I imagine it’s going to be helpful for so many people not only just talking about how do we support people in layoffs kindly, but also how do we negotiate in a way that is really empowering ourselves and making sure that we’re setting ourselves up for success? Thank you so much. And if there’s anything else you want to leave our listeners Feel free, we will be linking your contact in the show notes. And if there’s anything else you want me to send out, please let me know or share it with folks right now.
The only message I have for for people listening to the podcast is knowing their value and not being afraid to ask for what is fair. And what’s their worth. It’s doesn’t come natural, it doesn’t come naturally for if you’re a woman in tech, if you’re a female executive, if you’re a minority, but it’s the absolute right thing to do. And there are mentors out there. And I love mentoring people on how to do it gracefully, and change some of the practices in the industry. So thank you so much for having me, I love this conversation. And I hope we can meet again and continue our chat.
I love it, we will. I am loving this conversation.
And as we prepare for this podcast interview to come to a close, I’m going to leave you with three things that will really help you to embody the confidence to ask for what you desire, and what you deserve. And if we don’t ask for it, we have no opportunity to receive it to receive it. So I’m going to break this down into three parts.
One, I’m going to lead by example, and make a bold request so that I can receive what I desire and what I’m deserving. And hopefully that will be an inspiration to you.
Number two, I’m going to share the coaching framework that I used with Samina to help her discern what was her negotiating power and and what were her concerns and what did she really want. This is something you can journal about for yourself, or you can utilize it with others to help them in their negotiations. And this can be applied to anything that you’re negotiating for.
And then number three, I’m going to share what you can actually negotiate for in the new opportunity and professional path that you are seeking. Alright, you ready? Here we go. So I have had the great privilege and opportunity to serve some wonderful companies, leaders and teams in my business in the last decade. LinkedIn, Pixar, Clif Bar, Asana, capital, one Bank of the West, and then tech adventhealth, I am so grateful. And since 2020, I have known I wanted to join in an internal capacity in directing learning leadership team and org development. And it’s been a crazy couple of years in the job market and in the world at large. And I am having some incredible conversations with folks right now exploring the right opportunity. But at the end of the day, it’s all about the right fit.
And you might be asking, Why do I want this, I want this because I know that this path is where I can create the most influence and have the deepest positive impact with the internal people in the company and therefore, what the company is actually doing in the world. And I’m here to influence business to be a force for good in the world. So if you’re an executive search or in the C suite, or you’re working for a company where you just think Carly needs to be here we need Carly we need her wisdom and her passion and her skills. Then reach out to me I would love to know your challenges so I can help you can reach out to me on LinkedIn or you know just ping my website there’s there’s lots of links in the show notes and how to get in touch. If you also are aware of a role that is coming up that hasn’t been posted, and you think you know I could help in a full time or fractional capacity reach out. I would love to help and love to have that conversation.
Number two, let’s go over the negotiate Shin coaching framework that I use with Samina. Now, these are things that you can ask yourself, you can journal about, or you can actually roleplay this with another person. So first you want to share the context, what is the role? Or what is the thing that you are negotiating for? And then if you’re doing this with another person, you want to summarize what you heard them say, summarizing what you heard them say, not what you think you heard them say, right? This allows people to feel heard and to feel seen. And we all want that. And then after you summarize that, you also want to say, Did I miss anything? And that gives them an A chance to elaborate or clarify, then you want to actually follow up with another question and you ask them, What do you need? What are the tangible and intangible needs?
And it might even be helpful to ask them, what would this look like if you had these needs met? Right? Because then, then the person might even recognize that they didn’t need that, or they want something different? And then you would ask them, What are your concerns and asking for more, this is where the fear might come in. Or they recognize that there are parts of this role or parts of this opportunity, that aren’t quite aligned. And then you would ask them, okay, so now that you’ve gotten clear, what’s the next step? And as a coach, you always want to hold that person accountable to the next step. So you might say, how do we check in about this next step? Right?
Okay. So that’s the coaching framework. And again, this can be applied to yourself, or to someone in your life. And then the next thing that is really going to be helpful for you, if you’re exploring a new role is to understand what you can negotiate for in the interview. Ultimately, your satisfaction hinges less on getting the negotiation right and more on getting the job, right. So you want to really understand for who are your teammates? Who’s your boss? What’s the work life balance look like? How is this going to be a full guest for you?
So here’s some things that you can negotiate for. So you want to ask about the remote policy in this company. And you heard Samina and I talked about that, you want to ask about whether there’s bonus pay and equity. You want to know if there’s matching money. So for example, maybe you’ve worked in other roles where you are accustomed to a 12% match, what is the match in this iteration? You want to know what the vacation policy is? Is it three to four weeks? Can it be reevaluated after the first week of service? Do you have the option to do any side work? If that’s a passion, like maybe you have a podcast that you want to have outside of this scope and responsibility? You might want to ask for that. If you need to be in an office or in the same time zone?
Do they offer relocation pay? If professional development is important to you probably is especially if you’re listening to this podcast, then how do they support you in your personal and professional development? What is the stipend for that? Is there a certification that you want or a conference that you’d really love to go to every year? Ask for all of us upfront? What’s the health insurance coverage? Ask about travel, if you have to travel for work, whether it’s domestically or internationally. We all know travel takes a toll on the body, mind and soul. So perhaps there’s a negotiation upfront where you can say if I’m traveling to a different timezone or internationally, Can I tag on a couple of days where I can actually enjoy the city before I have to rush right back? Right?
Find out if there are any partial clauses for times of separation, where it is not your fault for the reason that they’re having to let people go as mean and I were talking about earlier in the interview. And then you might also want to ask if there might be a retention bonus after the first year. And one of the questions I also really love to ask is how will I know that I’m being successful in this role, and that’s not necessarily negotiation, but it is in a certain sense of what is expected of me in the first month in the first 60 days, 90 days, like really getting clear on that with the hiring manager with the senior people leaders.
The other thing that’s a negotiation, qualifier for me is how much sponsorship are you getting from the senior people leaders because that’s going to allow you to actually have more influence and be more successful.
Okay, those are some of the things that I think will be really helpful for you in navigating, asking for more. So how are you going to ask for more whether it’s at work, or it’s at home?
If you enjoyed this episode, please give me a five star review, share it with friends, family or colleagues on LinkedIn. We’re all in this together and sharing is caring. I have some incredible interviews coming on in the podcast in 2023. So make sure you subscribe. And thank you so much for tuning in.
